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Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball

 
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Jorge




Joined: Aug 07, 2005
Posts: 70
Location: Philam Homes, QCMM

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:57 am  Post subject: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

Guys,

More than ball speed/revolutions, there is another topic that we can discuss.

This would be the issue of of whether a curve ball (exaggerated hook) or a hook ball should be used.  All that is said below is for a right hander.

To differentiate, a curve ball is the type used by Coach Angelo, Dabes. Hammerhead, Ricky de Leon of BNB, and Dr. Luis Buencamino of Dagupan.  In bowling lingo, it is called "paikot".  The ball is thrown from the extreme left over the fifth or fourth arrow and travels over to within a few boards of the right gutter then veers sharply to the left (hopefully) into the 1-3 pocket.  If it does, it usually produces a strike.  In some cases, the extreme spin/angle makes the head pin fly around and do some damage to whatever pins are left standing.  If you can do this for 12 times, you get a perfect game.  What if you can't ?  You get scores like 120 to 140 easily.

A hook ball has a smaller curve, usually thrown straight up over the second arrow, or slightly outward over the second arrow towards the fifth board or thereabouts, then swings back into the 1-3 pocket.  It does not produce a very spectacular strike but works fine in most cases.  This type of ball is used by Takahiro Yoshida.  I have seen him play for some time and even played with him on a pair of lanes during cosmic bowling.  He usually scores in the 200 to 220 range, rarely falling below 180.  I have never seen him roll more than a 240, but his game is consistent, and he is a very good spare shooter.

So now, what do you think is the more effective style ?  Can we have some opinions from everyone ?

ToolTimes at work


Jaws
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dabesbowlerindapilipins




Joined: Nov 18, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:58 pm  Post subject: Re: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

tito jorge,

pls allow me to correct you.  i throw a hook ball, not a curve ball.  it's the ball's characteristics that makes it arc, snap or set.  the reason you see me stand left and shoot right is because based on experience, that line will give me the highest percentage of hitting the pocket plus the lanes dictate me to do so.  

i don't think doc louie is a "paikot".  the term paikot refers to person's ability to rev up the ball.  doc louie throws a small to moderate hook.

if the lanes are pretty easy that a blind man can throw a strike, it's the booming hook that will outscore the small hook because of its capability to open up the shot.

if the lanes are tight, the one who can rev it up will have an advantage.

if the lanes are dry, the small hook will have an advantage.

if the lanes are squirrely or raked, the one with good ball control will have an advantage.

you have to remember it is the ball that's doing the hook.  with this in mind, it is possible for you to outhook me.  if you use an ebonite v2 power and i use a blue hammer, it is possible that we might be playing your favorite line (which is the track shot).

with that being said, it is how you match the ball with the lane that will give you an effective style.  it is not a question about the amount of hook but the amount of ball sense one has.

ps: generally, japanese bowlers like to play the small hook so it is not surprising that you see takahiro-san use a 3 to 5 board hook.
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journe300




Joined: Jan 02, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:04 am  Post subject: Re: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

Doesn't matter for me as long as i get a 300 that would be the best  Wink
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Angelo




Joined: Aug 07, 2003
Posts: 303
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:43 am  Post subject: Re: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

i think the issue is to hook the ball or to make it straight....

well for me, it depends on the lanes, if you are bowling at grand central,ilo ilo,cebu, or sm fairview and megamall - surely,  a straight ball is the only thing you can do or else you'll get a collection of splits and washouts....but in a high scoring condition like rockwell, playdium, .....  it is an advantage if you can see the ball hook more than 5 boards...  

that's right, takahiro plays a straight line, a typical japanese player, is very consistent and can bowl good in most lanes, he is a consistent bowler and specialized in sparing although taka is not a high gamer, Dr. Louie used to bowl straight but not now, he hooks the ball all over the lanes ever since he use the Belmonte Style(two hand release).

it is much better if you can bowl both, be flexible...if the lane demands to hook the ball, try to use your strongest ball to match the lane and if it requires a straighter shot, try to increase ball speed, less rotation and more forward shot, or simply change to a lesser hooking ball.


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Jorge




Joined: Aug 07, 2005
Posts: 70
Location: Philam Homes, QCMM

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:30 pm  Post subject: Re: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

Dabes/Coach Angelo

I think we have to realign terminology.  Having heard Coach Angelo's reference to Chester King's type of game as straight ball, it seems that the following is true:

1.  What I call a curve ball is your hook ball
2.  What I call a hook ball is your "straight" ball

Technically, Taka's ball hooks small by your standards and is relatively straight in comparison, but not a true straight ball.

Agree that flexibility in adjusting spin and ball speed is a great asset but not everyone can do it.  I for one cannot rev the ball as much as you guys so I have to satisfy myself with a small to medium hook, using the trackshot for Playdium conditions. When the lanes are fast, medyo kamote ang laro ko. I guess Dabes is right when he said that for a fast lane, it is of great advantage to have a high revving delivery. Having a smaller rev capability, I do better when the lanes slow down.

About Doc Louie, I saw him play only once in Playdium at around 7:30 PM during the Kibit Balikat qualifiying rounds.  The lanes had not been oiled for the evening so the lanes were slow.  He was throwing Jason Belmonte type balls at the start and the ball was really hooking.  He then shifted to his regular one hand release and his ball was still hooking appreciably.  The lanes must have been slow.  I would say that his hook is medium to big.


Jaws
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dabesbowlerindapilipins




Joined: Nov 18, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:53 am  Post subject: Re: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

tito jorge,

re louie, i haven't seen him throw a two hander so all along, i know he throws right.  the lanes during the last tournament was jumpy.  it would be common that people be experiencing early read of the midlane especially when playing in the middle.  

re: rev challenged players, nowadays, you don't need to produce the rev to create the hook.  there are ball available that hook right off your hand! hehehehehe!  most often, you experience a mismatch.  it's like using a screwdriver for a philips screw.  pwedeng gamitin pero it would be much easier if you used a philips screwdriver.  

examples of balls for heavy oil are ebonite the one and xxxcel. (shameless plug).  there are tweaks that you can do to match the equipment which the lanes.  you could always change the surface (to make it grab earlier) and/or drill a weight hole to lessen the positive weights (to make it spin earlier).  best option would be buying a ball for heavy oil.  there is really no need to learn the ways of revving the ball.  but you have to remember also that material plays a part.  it is an exercise in futility if you sand and drill a weight hole on a plastic ball for wet lanes.

re terminology, there are basically 3 types of throw, the straight ball, hook ball and reverse hook.  the straight ball is a throw wherein the ball doesnt change direction ergo straight lang sya.  the other two changes direction after a certain distance due to spin.  chester, taka and i throw a hook ball.  nagkataon lang na iba iba lang un laki ng hook namin.  althought it is possible that we can play the same line given different balls. rico throws a straight ball.  i hope we are clear on this. it would be an insult to chester if you tell him he throws a straight ball.  

Ot: sit in ka na kasi...
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Jorge




Joined: Aug 07, 2005
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Location: Philam Homes, QCMM

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:45 pm  Post subject: Re: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

Dabes,

I know that Chester throws a hook ball. I think his ball hooks a bit more than mine does.  It was not I who said na straight ball ang delivery niya.  It was Coach Angelo who once said that long ago, straight ball daw ang delivery niya, to quote "gaya ni Chester".  It was here that I concluded that he meant that compared to his current delivery's ball curve, Chester throws a relatively straight ball.  This is why I said that Coach Angelo's "straight ball" definition includes small hooks.

I disagree that Rico throws a straight ball.  It hooks very slightly, if you look very closely, but no more than a few boards.

OK na rin ang mga bola ko for now, I can live with the small to medium hook.  I have been trying to keep patient and get my spares, so I try not to get frustrated when I leave a pin on a seemingly good pocket hit.  So far, it helps but I do need more patience.  I will see about sitting in when Club Playdium resumes three Tuesdays from now.


Jaws
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dabesbowlerindapilipins




Joined: Nov 18, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:31 pm  Post subject: Re: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

tito jorge,

re rico, you maybe right on that one.  i just saw him tonight throw a sanded ball and it hooked.  like i said before, it's the ball characteristics that determines the way it travels plus of course the lane pattern.
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Jorge




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:45 pm  Post subject: Re: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

Dabes,

Let me add something to the discussion of big hook vs. small hook.

Last Tuesday, at the PTBA league, the lanes were extra difficult, except for you, Kerwin, and probably Coach Angelo (saw some good 200 games from you guys).  Everyone of the big hook ball players were having a hell of time - Chris, Louie, Ronnie, Regie, Jonathan, etc.  The best scores were from the small hook players - Doc Jojo, Rico, Albert.  I produced my best game by playing a small hook on the middle part of the lane, over the third arrow and outward less than five boards.  Got a turkey but it did not last.

So let us add that when the lanes are extra difficult, the small hook bowlers have the advantage, in general of course.


Jaws
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dabesbowlerindapilipins




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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:34 pm  Post subject: Re: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

tito jorge,

the lanes were not that hard.  the reason why i scored is a) there was a bet and b) i read the lanes right.  if you saw me score low on the first game, the reason is a) i'm hustling and b) i'm trying something.  i don't believe that the small hook players that nite scored as well as i did or even as well as kerwin.  i believe we do have higher averages compared to those you mentioned.  when the lanes are extra difficult (if you say so), the better bowler will have the advantage.  

chris played all the way in the oil. his ball never moved properly. louie read the lanes wrong too.  ronnie throws a small hook and probably is having a hard time because his bowling game is a work-in-progress due to training. i didnt see regie's game.  jonathan is not a high average bowler so it is possible that he is playing his norm.

bottom line:  if you didn't score, you read the lanes incorrectly.  amount of hook is not an issue.
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Fairplay




Joined: Nov 04, 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:28 pm  Post subject: Re: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

Mr. Jorge.
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bobby




Joined: Feb 09, 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:06 pm  Post subject: Re: Curve Ball vs. Hook Ball Reply with quote

large/small hook does it really matter,
bowl whats most comfortable for your self,
300 thats not spectacular bowled is always better than a spectacular 140,

reading lanes as best you can is 2 practise balls, be consistant in what you do best, as for big/small curve/hook
is it not moreimportant to have a  so called '' good working '' ball when ball hits the pocket
Confused
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